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05/11/23 05:15 PM #1987    

Janis Cohen


Congratulations, Preston.  Having visited your Eagle Sanctuary (and meeting you), I understand its significance.  I look forward to seeing the PBS show. 
Janis Cohen

 


05/16/23 04:02 PM #1988    

 

Robert Lindner

I was reading the notes on our younger days

And comparisons to our children and grandchildren's

Times and I thought of some songs with that theme

And came up with the musical CHICAGO and

Cole Porter's glympses of stocking and authors

With four letter words. My four letter words

Are Time, Life and Love. 

Robert Lindner

 

A Memory of Younger Days

“In olden days, a glimpse of stocking

Was looked upon as something shocking.

Now God knows, anything goes!

Good authors, too, who once knew better words,

Now only use four letter words,

Writing prose. Anything goes!”

Anything Goes by Cole Porter

And that's Good, isn't it? Grand, isn't it? Great, isn't it?

Swell, isn't it? Fun, isn't it? But nothing stays.
In fifty years or so. It's gonna change, you know,
But, oh, it's heaven. Nowadays

Nowadays from Chicago, the musical

 

In younger days, when years

Went faster, a small disaster brought tears.

But they were brief and we

Got through, since we’d not be

Too serious, mostly.

And would be playing board games, like Careers

Or Monopoly or

Games in the park that required us to score

Runs or run for touchdowns.

And some of us were clowns,

Some with smiles, some with frowns.

That’s all before we found what was in store

For us. But we could not

Think that far ahead. Therefore, what we got

Was what we were going

To get. But now, knowing

What the world was showing

Us, we must wonder why we couldn’t spot

The signs trying to show

Us the way to better roads, we now know

Were always there, if we

Had looked more carefully.

But that seems meant to be,

Since we were who we were and so we’d go

Where we are now. But please,

Let’s recall the past with fond memories,

Since we can’t change what was,

Go back and fix the flaws

In our choices because

Time’s passed. And olden days are just stories,

Once hidden by desires

That sometimes were pumped up like bicycle tires

For the bike, that I’d ride

To parks that I’d decide

Were a bit far outside

That distance youthful energy requires

For a walk to the park.

But there were parks nearby, where, in the dark,

We’d play hide and seek, though

We called it, “ditch.” We’d go

Into dark alleys to show

We had no fear and wished to make our mark

In the time we were in.

The time, now long past, when, if we could win

The games, we played, that was

Of importance because

If we lost, then with claws

Out, the teasing of our flaws would begin,

With no apparent end.

But that was in younger days. Days we’d spend

Having fun, mostly.

Now they’re just memory

Chosen selectively,

For good times rather than times that offend

Us with those teasing ways

That are happily lost in olden days,

That are just memory.

Now time moves more slowly,

And we forget what we

Have forgotten, though some memory stays

And seems like Heaven, more

Nowadays, after the fifty years or

So since in Chicago

We found our way, you know,

In fast years, now turned slow,

Though “Anything Goes,” unlike times before,

When a boy, that was shy,

Played his games and rode his bike and would try

To understand who he

Was and who he would be.

That’s just a memory

Of younger days that makes those times in my

Life go by. But now I’m

Here, remembering, going into time

To olden nowadays

With the songs that can raise

The younger days of plays

And musicals to the power of rhyme.

Now that’s my memory

Of days that were the younger days for me

But olden days long done

In history, part one

For this son of the sun

And the earth, who imagined he would be

A lucky boy, since he

Had survived a history that would be

Called miraculous when

There were songs of olden

Days that were not heaven,

Though many went there into memory.


05/17/23 02:10 PM #1989    

 

Lincoln Krochmal

Robert,

You latest work is truly amazing! Your talent is incredible and you have captured so many moments of our youth so eloquently. Once again,I thank you for sharing your work with all of us, truly a gift! Keep working.

best,

Linc


05/17/23 03:09 PM #1990    

 

Lincoln Krochmal

Regarding where I was when JFK was assasinated. I was in Mr. Limsden class whenhe told us and the class was stunned. He then dismissed us and weall marched out to go our separate ways in dismay ans shock! A time that did define our generation until 9-11 had a further impact as I was sitting on a BA jet ready to take off for London when the airport was closaed and from the planes window we could see the smoke coming from the twin towers. What an awful day that fiurther defined our generation and country. I hope our kids never have a repeat of either although Jan 6 may come in as a close #3 in our lives.


05/19/23 06:10 AM #1991    

 

Jack Rakove

I think Lincoln is right. Kennedy's assassination, 9/11, and January 6 are the three dominant, impactful (I word I otherwise never use) events of our lives. I would then put the opening of the Berlin Wall and the Tienanmen Massacre in a second category, for their global and not merely American significanxce.

After dropping our younger son Dan off at college in early Sept. 2001, Helen and I took an "empty nest" trip to Italy..We went to the World Trade Center briefly a day or two before we left from Newark. Our takeoff was strange because something tested positive for who-knows-what in my wife's luggage and I was actuallty called off the plane to go through her suitcase, item by item. In any event, we took off, flew to Milan, and spent 9/11 touring Pompeii. It was only when we got back to our room in Sorrento that we learned about the events in NYC and Washington. It was hard to grasp because the way CNN recycled the footage made it hard at first to comprehend whether the Towers were up or down.

But now I think about January 6 pretty much every day, mostly because I have been writing a political history of the US Constitution, 1789-2024, and the events of that day, its aftermath, and the whole meaning of the Trump presidency have really complicated my thinking. As I like to say, when you write a book, you never know how it's going to end until you get to the last page, but historians should know what the conclusion is going to be well before you reach it. That's no longer the case, because all the assumptions I would ordinarily have made about the stability of the American "political system" (this is a Madisonian phrase I am also writing about in a related project) are no longer certain. It's become a real puzzle for me intellectually, which is why January 6 looms in my mind pretty much on a daoily basis. It doesn't help that I watch too much MSNBC. But still being a historian for the working day, needing something to think about during my morning swim or walk, there is a lot to brood about, and Lincoln's point got me thinking about this earlier in the day than usual.

And now it's 4 a.m. out here oin the coast, where Lincoln and I hang out, so I'll try going back to sleep.


05/20/23 11:00 AM #1992    

 

Linda Allardyce (Davie)

I was in an English class that was huge and I thought it wa a joke. I was wrong. What a tragedy.  Linda Allardyce(Davie)


05/20/23 06:18 PM #1993    

 

Susan Spiegel (Pastin)

 

Good call, Jack, on adding the fall of the

Berlin wall and the Tienaman Square

massacre just some of the most

momentous events during our lifetime.

It occurs to me that we also might add

the landing on the moon in 1969.

 

I too find Jan. 6 traumatic.   It was extremely

painful to watch. And afterwards, my already

arthritic right knee gave out for good, and I

needed to walk with a cane and now a walker.

I am supposed to have a right knee

replacement soon.

 

Citizens certainly have a right to confront

Congress and petition their representatives.

but this was an actual coup d'état,

led by a would-be dictator.

 


05/20/23 06:42 PM #1994    

 

William Wanlund

Jack -- Your new book sounds really interesting, and a quite ambitious project.  What is your current thinking about the impact of the Trump presidency?  And if you feel like responding, you might think about putting it in the Discussion Forum.

On 9/11 I was the public affairs officer in the State Dept. Economics Bureau -- all that means is I had a TV in my little office. CNN was on, muted, when they interrupted whatever they were talking about to report a plane had crashed into the WTC -- pictures, but no other information.  My boss came in and we exchanged some snarky remarks about the pilot -- and then the second plane hit. No more snark. The State Department building spontaneously evacuated -- the announcement telling us to leave came while most  of us were already out or headed for the exits (a sign of our inflated feeling of self-importance, thinking State might be a terrorist target. Pentagon, yes.  Capitol, yes.  White House, yes. CIA, yes.  State Department building?  Nah.)  

Anyway, somehow, despite 6 or 7000 people milling around on the bordering streets (and no cell phone), my wife, also working for State, and I managed to meet up fairly quickly.  Walking to our car in our jumpy state, we heard what sounded like an explosion and immediately speculated some other target had been hit -- White House, maybe, or another hit on the Pentagon.  (We learned the next day that we had probably heard the sonic boom of a USAF jet.) Then, getting home, normally a 20-minute drive, took 2 hours.  Two (other) things from that drive stand out for me:  First, the general politeness and cordiality of other drivers ("You merge first" "Oh, no, after you, I insist!") despite the absolutely chaotic traffic on jammed roads -- unheard of before or since on Washington-area roads.  The other, sobering, recollection is the view from the Potomac River Roosevelt Bridge from DC into Virginia of the plume of black smoke rising from the Pentagon. 

I think it's fair to say that 9/11 was Pearl Harbor Day for us Boomers, briefly and in a largely good, uniting way, although the parallels between the anti-Japanese reaction in the afternath of Decenber 7 and the anti-Muslim (hell, anti-foreigner) attitudes after 9/11 are uncomfortable, sadly revealing and still with us.  And also, for a short time, we had the sympathy and support of much of the world -- remember Le Monde's headline, "Nous sommes tous américains'"?  We -- our government -- in our rage managed to dissipate that good feeling pretty quickly, with waterboarding, Abu Ghraib, illegal renditions and general bellicosity instead of observing basic human rights and decency.  But, it was a moment.

 


05/21/23 09:19 AM #1995    

Alison Hayford

Having lived in Canada for 50 years (as of Sept 2), I can think of ways that the pivotal nature of some of these memories are particular to the US.   Among the Canadians I came to know well, the Kennedy assassination was of course a significant historical event, but not the rug-pulled-out-under-us experience that it was for so many of us. (I have to say that a week or so after the assassination I was waiting for the bus one morning on my way to school when a girl about my age asked me why the flags were at half mast. When I told her it was to honor Kennedy she looked disgusted and said something along the lines of oh for crying out loud. So not all people in the US reacted the same way....)  Sept 11 really hit hard to Canadians, but without the same sense of something fundamental being attacked or broken. Indeed, many Canadians were kind of proud of the hospitality shown to American flyers who were stranded here (it became a musical).  A big part of being Canadian is not being American, so the things that happen south of the border often serve to confirm that--except that in this day of schlock talk radio, Fox news, and multiple conspiracy web sites, not to mention ordinary US mass media many Canadians actually don't quite understand that, for example, the second and fifth amendments don't apply here.  And a weird guy who was driving me to pick up my car was convinced that terrorists were going to attack the oil refinery in Regina, Saskatchewan, where I was still living.  In the land of peace, order and good government, mass shootings cause more soul searching and Crown commissions than thoughts and prayers, not to mention proclamations that This isn't the US! these things don't happen here!! as happened after the massacre of women students at the Ecole Polytechnique in Montreal in 1989 (did this impinge on US consciousness at all?). 


05/21/23 03:45 PM #1996    

 

Robert Lindner

This requires a time travel poem, as we

Go flashing through our memory

Of where we were in our history.

I was in L.A. when Bobby Kennedy

Died and I was working on his campaign. 

When he was killed my grades went down the drain.

That changed my life, but I cannot complain

Because, "All's well, that ends well." is the main

Refrain to measure personal effects

On our lives. And that's what, indeed, connects

Us to our history, in most respects.

Each of us is different and selects

The old memories that we choose to recall.

But somethings, we don't remember at all.

Perhaps they're just repressed because we don't

Want to remember them so our brains won't.

So from history to psychology

We move in time to tunes of memory

And therefore I shall end this poetry

With time in Einstein's relativity.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


05/21/23 04:10 PM #1997    

 

Jack Rakove

To Bill's point, if I were to venture an answer, I'd probably vex some partisan feelings we want this website to avoid, and in any case, as I work on my next book (its working title is The Ticklish Experiment, which takes off from a passage in Madison's 49th Federalist essay), I am still trying to puzzle out my answers, which will take me a few more years. The one thing I think it is safe to share, because I think it is reasonably non-controversial, would probably revolve around the collapse of proper norms of political behavior. Trump has vulgarized American politics to an extent that would have been wholly unimaginable before 2016. The fact that Roy Cohn, Joe McCarthy's sidekick, was something of a mentor to The Former Guy, may be part of the story; McCarthy did have a lasting impact on Republican politics.

I am sure Alison is right to say that some of these events may look different from a vantage point outside the U.S. Het given our status as the superpower, the vulnerability of 9/11 and the outright shock of a riot/coup designed to undermine the political stability of the US still strike me as globally significant events.


05/22/23 08:04 AM #1998    

Alison Hayford

What happens in the US is globally significant--no question about that.  Over the years I have heard Canadian friends say half seriously that they should be allowed to vote in US federal elections, since those elections have  such a profound impact north of the border.... But people outside the US are unlikely to have the same sense of a promise betrayed that many people in the US have in response to these events. Indeed, given the knee-jerk anti-Americanism of many Canadians, they might see assassinations, riots, mass shootings, right wing conspiracies, etc. as typically  American, a point of view I have challenged for most of the years I've lived here. (I hope the previous sentence does not transgress bulletin board standards).  I have a question for Jack that I think is within the bounds of polite discourse:  Many Canadians (of my social circle, which is of course a teensy and not particularly representative percentage of the total population) like to contrast "peace, order, and good government" with "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" as a way of showing how gormless Americans really are--how can making people happy be a goal of government?  But my understanding is that "happiness" in the 18th century context does not mean a constant state of elation, but rather having access to the ordinary necessities of life--a family, a home, a decent living.  Am I right?  


05/22/23 03:41 PM #1999    

 

Patrick Furlong

I always thought that "the pursuit of happiness" meant more than just obtaining the necessities of life. It was higher on Maslow's hierarchy of needs and connoted the ability to work toward one's goals and lead a fulfilling life, in one's own estimation. Jack will know for certain.

As an aside, "gormless" is a new one for me. As the old saying goes, "You learn something every day!" Thanks, Alison.


05/22/23 08:33 PM #2000    

 

Jack Rakove

Oooh! I get to write message 2000, which must mean something, somewhere.

Alison, you are exactly right. Happiness in the 18th century did not simply mean something like, feeling chipper, or upbeat, or giddy, or whatever. Philosophically, it implies a state of contentment, security, self-sufficiency (sometimes referred to as enjoying a "decent competence"), and other related conditions and circumstances. So the notion ithat it is equivalent to feeling happy--as opposed, say, to feeling gloomy or downbeat--is simply wrong and anachronistic.

Two other points are worth noting. One is that Jefferson and the Declaration did replace the conventional phrase, "life, liberty, and property," with "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." The other is that Jefferson used the word happiness a lot. It recurs in numerous places in his writings, in his letters as well as public papers. I wrote about this a bit in the Jefferson chapter in my book Revolutionaries, showing that it was a subject he invoked in a variety of circumstances, both personally and socially. There's even a passage in one of his letters where he reflects on securing the happiness of his slave workforce at Monticello as one of his personal duties--a conjunction of exploitation and some notion of paternal responsibility that would strike us as being bizarre and utterly grotesque.

 


05/22/23 08:37 PM #2001    

 

Jack Rakove

p.s. I could have added one more response to Alison's query: that some scholars like to note that the dominant demographic element in early Canadian politics, outside of Quebec, were Loyalist refugees, who preferred order on the traditional British model over the mad enthusiasms of the American revolutionaries (my guys). My late colleague Seymour Martin Lipset wrote a book or two on this comparison.


05/23/23 06:54 AM #2002    

Alison Hayford

I've thought for a long time that in many ways the essence of Canadian culture arises from a Catholic/Anglican tradition--communal, hierarchical, orderly and ritualistic (hence the Royal Commission response to troubling issues) while the essence of US culture arises more from a Protestant tradition--individualistic, shifting hierarchies, disorderly and sectarian (hence the thoughts and prayers response to troubling issues).  Not that any of this has much to do with actual religious practices.  As for loyalists--my husband, who is from a Mennonite background, gets quite irked at the two-founding-(settler)nations concept of Canada, since his forebears were definitely not loyalists, but migrated to what was then Upper Canada at much the same time as loyalists showed up in the Maritimes.  The old Protestant (but really kind of Catholic/Anglican) Ascendancy got to write history for many years, which might explain their own centrality in the narratives that were standard for a long time.  Lipset wrote Agrarian Socialism, about the rise of social democracy in Saskatchewan, the province I lived until a couple of years ago.  Lipset might be a little surprised, not happily (in the 21st century sense), to see what has happened to that political tradition.  


05/23/23 01:57 PM #2003    

 

Lincoln Krochmal

Thanks to Aliso, Jack and Patrick for your discourse as I have learned something new. A good day for me is when I learn something new or can reach something to someone else so this is a good staert to the day for me! BTW, the book OperationUnderworld is a really good book about how the U.S. govt utilized the help of the mafia in NYC to  find the Nazi spies so prevalent to aiding the German U-boats sinking our merchant marine ships as they supplied England early in WWII. I knew nothing about this so another good learning experience for me.Hope it will be for others as well!

to all my ETHS coilleagues, be well and be safe!


05/23/23 04:03 PM #2004    

 

Jack Rakove

Alison and I seem to be launching our own seminar here--which may not be surprising, given that we're both (retired) academics. I have to defer to her far greater knowledge of Canadian history. Like most US historians, I know a bit about Canadian history, but not much. One main point of contrast is that Americans define our political history in terms of its two foundings, one in the 1770s and 1780s, one in the 1860s--big revolutionary upheavals that do not resemble the gradual process of forming the Canadian confederation, the special status of Quebec, etc.

I do like the religious points that Alison makes, because the free exercise of religion was the subject of my last book. In the U.S., I liked to tell my students, we are all Protestants, whatever our denomination or faith, because we emphasize the individual's right to choose whatever religion he or she wishes to practice and the right of the laity to play a major role in the direction of their churches, synagogues, or mosques. If you didn't like the way things were going in your local house of worship, or the doctrines being taught there, you were free to choose another or abandon them all.

(This makes me think of the cycle my dad put me through when we moved back to Chicago from Gainesville, Florida, in 1957, when I first went to an Orthiodox shul on California and Lunt in Chicago, then to the Reform congregation Emanuel on Sheridan Road just south of Loyola, before winding up at the Conservative B'nai Zion on Pratt near Sheridan, where I did my bar mitzvah 63 years ago this weekend--and coinidentally, I just chanted my portion the weekend before last--I still know most of it by heart).

Just reminiscing here . . . sorry.


05/24/23 08:10 AM #2005    

Alison Hayford

Well, I have to say that I didn't find out that the US actually LOST the War of 1812 until I moved to Canada! Perspective matters!!


05/24/23 10:57 AM #2006    

 

Jack Rakove

Yes, and when you're in Britain, the American Revolution largely drops out of the narrative. They like to emphasize everything down through the 7 Years War (French and Indian War, as we call it, 1756-63), skip over "the late unpleasantness" with the American colonists (1765-83), and cut to the chase with the long struggle against Revolutionary & Napoleonic France from 1793-1815.

But I think and hope Revolution 250 (the 2026 commemoration) will change that--or at least get me a British gig or two.

And then there's the line from Phil Ochs song (which I have on a CD) "I Ain't Marching Anymore" that drives me nuts:

Oh I marched to the battle of New Orleans

At the end of the early British war.

The Revolution was the early British war, and the War of 1812 was the last British war. But what's a little historical inaccuracy among friends?


05/24/23 12:53 PM #2007    

 

Jack Hayes

I thought that the War of 1812 was essentially a tie since the Treaty of Ghent basically reestablished things back to conditions and boundaries prior to 1812. Perhaps the fact that the U.S. failed in any effort to annex any Canadian territory would lead our great neighbors "up there" to say the U.S. lost the War.
I'm certain my knowledge of the subject is quite meager in comparison to our experts, however.   


05/24/23 01:10 PM #2008    

 

Jack Rakove

Actually the standard response is what's called "saving the republic"--meaning there were genuine threats of disunion and sedition coming from New England by 1814, but the combination of the Treaty of Ghent and Andrew Jackson's slaughtering the British at New Orleans effectively end that danger. Plus even though few scholars reagrd Madison's presidency as the high point of his career, when he left office (by steamboat!) in 1817, he remained a popular figure. A few Madison scholars, myself included, like to argue that his presidency was indeed successful because he tried to conduct it in conformity with republican principles--meaning, rather than try to crack down on the rogue New England states, he avoided any overt confrontation with them.


05/24/23 08:26 PM #2009    

 

William Wanlund

I have nothing useful to add to this discussion--I'm just enjoying it.   And because my wife and  I are in Quebec City this week, I'm especially enjoying Alison's perspective.


05/24/23 08:29 PM #2010    

Alison Hayford

Ah, Quebec! That's a whole nuther issue!!


05/24/23 08:52 PM #2011    

 

Lincoln Krochmal

I , too, am enjoying following this discussioin by Alison, Jack and Jack. Continuing to learn from it. Since Alison mentioned music, I have something less relevant to contribute and that is my thanks to Canada for their great contributions to music through  The Band(listen to Acadian Driftwood), Neal young, Joni Mitchell, Gordon Lightfoot, Burton Cummings and The Guess Who and BTO(Bachman-Turner Overdrive). All produced great music for us south of the border to enjoy . For the music lovers among us, surely you will recognize these names, especially The Band, my favorite!

Keep the discourse flowing!


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